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Cranial Restructuring / Re: How to measure progress?
« on: October 01, 2014, 05:57:53 pm »ma6 did you get a helmet yet for facepulling?
Not yet. I'm talking to some orthos, and then I will decide what path to take.
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Not yet. I'm talking to some orthos, and then I will decide what path to take.
2
Cranial Restructuring / Re: How to measure progress?
« on: September 30, 2014, 10:40:39 am »
Knoppe,
I anticipate the benefits to accurately measuring my progress would be:
Thanks.
I anticipate the benefits to accurately measuring my progress would be:
- To remove any subjective measurement or placebo effect by not relying on how it feels. I won't have to wonder if it just seems better or really is better.
- By tracking the changes over time, I can know how fast things are moving and then predict how long it will take to get it where I want. I could predict where I should be in a month, or a year.
- When I make changes (more time per day or stronger rubber bands, for example) I can know what difference it makes and whether I need to make more changes.
- To know if progress has stopped and I have hit a wall for some reason.
- After I'm all done facepulling, to know if things are holding constant, or if or how fast things are reverting back to where they were.
Thanks.
3
Cranial Restructuring / How to measure progress?
« on: September 21, 2014, 11:45:07 am »
When I start face pulling, I want to monitor my progress. How can I measure the advance of my maxilla?
I'm thinking I want to measure from my top front teeth all the way to the back of my head. How can I do that accurately?
Thanks.
I'm thinking I want to measure from my top front teeth all the way to the back of my head. How can I do that accurately?
Thanks.
4
Cranial Restructuring / Re: Pull headgear without braces?
« on: September 17, 2014, 07:44:58 pm »
PUMA,
I asked CrystalBraces if they use elastics, and they do not. So, I don't think I will use them. I'd have to rig my own elastics or headgear, and in that case I could use a DIY "invisible" retainer instead which would be cheaper.
I'm contemplating 3 options for my particular problem:
#2 is going to be expensive.
#3 may be risky.
I plan to schedule some consultations with orthos and ask them how they would treat me, and ask them if #1 would fix my problem.
After I talk to a few orthos and learn what I can from them, I'm leaning toward #3. It will be SO much less expensive that I might as well give it a try. Even if it fails, I'm not out that much money. Worse case is I mess up my bite/teeth somehow. But, that wouldn't happen overnight. Teeth don't move that fast. So, I would watch things carefully and I may have to give it up and use a real orthodontist.
This PDF explains how Invisalign uses "precision cuts" to create elastic hooks and Button cutouts:
http://provider.invisalign.com/documents/PrecisionCuts.pdf
One thing that says is:
So, they use a button for the one that's pulling forward. I wonder why they can use a hook on the bottom tray for class III elastics, but not both the top and bottom. They must have a good reason. This concerns me. I wonder if there's not enough grip on the back molars. An advantage I might have is that I don't need to pull downward, I could pull straight forward, or possibly even an upward angle.
I was not planning to ask Invisalign if they would use reverse pull headgear. I'm assuming the answer would be no. There's a lot of information about Invisalign publicly available, and searching their whole site for headgear (and synonyms) returns nothing. If headgear was an option, I think their site would mention it. I still think it's possible. If you can pull against the bottom teeth, I don't see why you can't pull against reverse-pull headgear. Maybe they just haven't tested it yet. Maybe they would need to get FDA approval and maybe they don't think it would pay off. I'm just speculating.
I'll be curious to hear what you learn as well. Thanks.
I asked CrystalBraces if they use elastics, and they do not. So, I don't think I will use them. I'd have to rig my own elastics or headgear, and in that case I could use a DIY "invisible" retainer instead which would be cheaper.
I'm contemplating 3 options for my particular problem:
- Invisalign with class III elastics (ie: elastics between the top and bottom teeth, not headgear)
- Full braces with reverse-pull headgear (possibly in addition to class III elastics)
- DIY clear retainer tray, and I cut hooks for elastics that I use with my own reverse-pull headgear
#2 is going to be expensive.
#3 may be risky.
I plan to schedule some consultations with orthos and ask them how they would treat me, and ask them if #1 would fix my problem.
After I talk to a few orthos and learn what I can from them, I'm leaning toward #3. It will be SO much less expensive that I might as well give it a try. Even if it fails, I'm not out that much money. Worse case is I mess up my bite/teeth somehow. But, that wouldn't happen overnight. Teeth don't move that fast. So, I would watch things carefully and I may have to give it up and use a real orthodontist.
This PDF explains how Invisalign uses "precision cuts" to create elastic hooks and Button cutouts:
http://provider.invisalign.com/documents/PrecisionCuts.pdf
One thing that says is:
Quote
Class II - Elastic Hooks on the upper cuspids and Button Cutouts on the lower first molars
Class III - Elastic Hooks on the lower canines and Button Cutouts on the upper first molars
So, they use a button for the one that's pulling forward. I wonder why they can use a hook on the bottom tray for class III elastics, but not both the top and bottom. They must have a good reason. This concerns me. I wonder if there's not enough grip on the back molars. An advantage I might have is that I don't need to pull downward, I could pull straight forward, or possibly even an upward angle.
I was not planning to ask Invisalign if they would use reverse pull headgear. I'm assuming the answer would be no. There's a lot of information about Invisalign publicly available, and searching their whole site for headgear (and synonyms) returns nothing. If headgear was an option, I think their site would mention it. I still think it's possible. If you can pull against the bottom teeth, I don't see why you can't pull against reverse-pull headgear. Maybe they just haven't tested it yet. Maybe they would need to get FDA approval and maybe they don't think it would pay off. I'm just speculating.
I'll be curious to hear what you learn as well. Thanks.
5
Cranial Restructuring / Re: Pull headgear without braces?
« on: September 13, 2014, 09:07:03 am »
Well, I'm middle-aged, so I don't think my jaw is growing. I think it's some of all of these:
- My top teeth have always been a little too far back, and the top has been very slowly progressing backward for a couple decades, and now it's simply, finally, reached the limit of my TM joint
- I used to grind my teeth all night. That helped my bite because my top and bottom teeth were pushing each other where they need to be. A few years ago I started using a night guard because I have significant wear that needs to stop. But, with the night guard my jaw and upper teeth are now free to relax and drift wherever they want. There's nothing to push the top forward anymore, or the bottom back.
- Lately, occasionally, I found myself sleeping face down (sort of at an angle but mostly face down at the edge of my pillow), and this is likely pushing my top teeth back further. I'm trying to not sleep that way, but I don't have that much control. If I ever catch myself face down, I turn over. I think the face-down sleeping is what has pushed my teeth past the limit these last few weeks.
6
Cranial Restructuring / Re: Face Pulling Apliances
« on: September 13, 2014, 08:53:14 am »
Oh, you're right. I didn't notice that. Darn.
...But, it looks like one hook can be cut into the aligner itself. This person has Invisalign with class III elastics, with a hook cut in the upper aligner and a button attached directly to the lower canines:
http://www.archwired.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=286329#p286329
This site says:
http://www.animated-teeth.com/dental-braces/a-invisalign-attachments.htm
I wonder if I could get an upper retainer/tray from doityourselfdentalimpressionkit or crystalbraces, and use a tiny dremel tool to cut a hook in the top back of the tray and pull on that with thecrane or a helmet or something.
...But, it looks like one hook can be cut into the aligner itself. This person has Invisalign with class III elastics, with a hook cut in the upper aligner and a button attached directly to the lower canines:
http://www.archwired.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=286329#p286329
This site says:
http://www.animated-teeth.com/dental-braces/a-invisalign-attachments.htm
Quote
What are Invisalign® "buttons"?
"Buttons" are the term Invisalign® uses for small plastic brackets that serve as anchors points for elastic bands.
As examples, one button may be placed on an upper eyetooth and the other on a lower molar, with an elastic running between them. In other cases, the second anchor point for the elastic is sometimes the Invisalign® aligner itself.
I wonder if I could get an upper retainer/tray from doityourselfdentalimpressionkit or crystalbraces, and use a tiny dremel tool to cut a hook in the top back of the tray and pull on that with thecrane or a helmet or something.
7
Cranial Restructuring / Re: Pull headgear without braces?
« on: September 12, 2014, 05:50:54 pm »
All the sudden I'm getting TMJ pain now. Great. My bite has gotten a lot worse lately. Pretty soon I will have to change how I chew, and chew with an underbite. So far I still have a "normal" bite, but now it hurts to chew that way because it's just too hard to get my lower jaw back far enough. So, now I have to do something.
I'm thinking about Invisalign with class III elastics, or reverse pull headgear. Perhaps from crystalbraces . com
I think that might be the cheapest and easiest solution.
I'm thinking about Invisalign with class III elastics, or reverse pull headgear. Perhaps from crystalbraces . com
I think that might be the cheapest and easiest solution.
8
Cranial Restructuring / Re: Face Pulling Apliances
« on: September 12, 2014, 05:45:25 pm »
I think it's very interesting.
I think the clear retainers might work. I doubt you could facepull with a traditional Hawley retainer though, because it doesn't surround the back molars. The clear retainers do surround the back molars.
You can see, you can use elastics with Invisalign, including class III elastics. Class III elastics pull the top teeth forward pulling against the bottom teeth. The rubberband goes from top-back teeth to the front-bottom teeth. I'm guessing the clear retainers at doityourselfdentalimpressionkit.com are similar to Invisalign trays.
So, if you can use class III elastics, it seems to me that you could use reverse pull headgear (or whatever) to pull the top teeth forward instead of pulling against the bottom teeth.
The question I have is, how could you attach hooks to the clear retainer?
I think the clear retainers might work. I doubt you could facepull with a traditional Hawley retainer though, because it doesn't surround the back molars. The clear retainers do surround the back molars.
You can see, you can use elastics with Invisalign, including class III elastics. Class III elastics pull the top teeth forward pulling against the bottom teeth. The rubberband goes from top-back teeth to the front-bottom teeth. I'm guessing the clear retainers at doityourselfdentalimpressionkit.com are similar to Invisalign trays.
So, if you can use class III elastics, it seems to me that you could use reverse pull headgear (or whatever) to pull the top teeth forward instead of pulling against the bottom teeth.
The question I have is, how could you attach hooks to the clear retainer?
9
Cranial Restructuring / Re: TMJ and facepulling
« on: August 18, 2014, 08:02:20 pm »
For some people their malocclusion causes stress on their TM joint - putting pressure where it shouldn't be. Either their bite is forcing their jaw too far back, forward, to the side, somewhere it doesn't want to be.
Now, if the problem is that your bite is forcing your jaw back too far because your front teeth are too close in, like me, then pulling the maxilla forward can correct your bite allowing your jaw to close where it's relaxed and meant to be. Then the TMJ may go away.
There may be other reasons that I'm not aware of, but that's at least one way "facepulling" can help tmj.
Now, if the problem is that your bite is forcing your jaw back too far because your front teeth are too close in, like me, then pulling the maxilla forward can correct your bite allowing your jaw to close where it's relaxed and meant to be. Then the TMJ may go away.
There may be other reasons that I'm not aware of, but that's at least one way "facepulling" can help tmj.
10
Cranial Restructuring / Re: Pull headgear without braces?
« on: August 18, 2014, 07:54:43 pm »
I consulted with 3 orthos now. We did not get in to specific types of headgear. Two docs mentioned it as likely being part of the treatment. I want to use The Crane, but I haven't asked yet.
Now, I'm questioning if I want to go though with this. At my latest consultation, the doc assured me that my current bite, even though it's 2-3mm off from where it should be, will never wear down or wear out my teeth from normal function (ie: eating). The doc assured me my teeth would only wear out by grinding at night if I did not wear a night guard. The doc said teeth can take that kind of use even though my teeth are rubbing more than they should as I eat.
The excessive wear was my biggest concern. So, now I have to decide if I want to do this (move my maxilla forward) for the other benefits. Is it worth it to me? The doc thought it would cost > $6000. Though, with that price he was trying to discourage me.
Now, I'm questioning if I want to go though with this. At my latest consultation, the doc assured me that my current bite, even though it's 2-3mm off from where it should be, will never wear down or wear out my teeth from normal function (ie: eating). The doc assured me my teeth would only wear out by grinding at night if I did not wear a night guard. The doc said teeth can take that kind of use even though my teeth are rubbing more than they should as I eat.
The excessive wear was my biggest concern. So, now I have to decide if I want to do this (move my maxilla forward) for the other benefits. Is it worth it to me? The doc thought it would cost > $6000. Though, with that price he was trying to discourage me.
11
Cranial Restructuring / Re: Pull headgear without braces?
« on: August 16, 2014, 09:27:27 pm »
I had not started to think about where it would be pulling from. But, that's an interesting point to consider.
My concerns with braces are the added expense and discomfort and looks (actually, I think everyone looks good in braces, so it's a little irrational of me to worry about looks).
But, I'm pretty sure I will have to get braces, because I doubt an orthodontist would use reverse pull headgear without being fully braced for fear of teeth being pushed out of position. But, when I saw that youtube video, I thought wow, maybe I don't need braces after all!
And, I suspect I will need class III rubber bands all day in order to maintain the movement from the headgear at night. I bet that's what my orthodontist will say anyway. Even though, it sounds like some folks here are doing face pulling for only a short time per day, and without class III rubber bands.
I'm worried about the rubber bands because they will be pulling my lower jaw back, and I don't want that. If anything, I'd like my lower jaw more forward not back. My progress would be slower without rubber bands, but I wonder how much slower?
My concerns with braces are the added expense and discomfort and looks (actually, I think everyone looks good in braces, so it's a little irrational of me to worry about looks).
But, I'm pretty sure I will have to get braces, because I doubt an orthodontist would use reverse pull headgear without being fully braced for fear of teeth being pushed out of position. But, when I saw that youtube video, I thought wow, maybe I don't need braces after all!
And, I suspect I will need class III rubber bands all day in order to maintain the movement from the headgear at night. I bet that's what my orthodontist will say anyway. Even though, it sounds like some folks here are doing face pulling for only a short time per day, and without class III rubber bands.
I'm worried about the rubber bands because they will be pulling my lower jaw back, and I don't want that. If anything, I'd like my lower jaw more forward not back. My progress would be slower without rubber bands, but I wonder how much slower?
12
Cranial Restructuring / Re: Face Pulling Apliances
« on: August 16, 2014, 11:12:00 am »
It looks like that link is broken. But, if any one is interested, I'm guessing it was an old online store for this:
http://doityourselfdentalimpressionkit.com/retainers/
http://doityourselfdentalimpressionkit.com/retainers/
13
Cranial Restructuring / Pull headgear without braces?
« on: August 16, 2014, 10:37:16 am »
To correct my bite and stop my teeth from grinding, I need to move all my top teeth forward in unison about 2mm by my estimate. I'm also looking forward to other benefits of pulling my maxilla forward:
So, I need reverse pull headgear of some kind. I'm looking at using The Crane. I don't have braces yet. I'm in the planning stages now.
I'm wondering if it's possible to use reverse pull headgear without also using class III rubberbands between the top and bottom braces?
The reason I'm asking is because then it might not be necessary to have braces at all, but something like the video below where the headgear pulls against a permanent retainer type thing. Is that picture actual possible like they show it, without braces (brackets+wires)?
Thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGdbLOocydM
- Look better
- More room for my tongue
- Possibly breathe better
So, I need reverse pull headgear of some kind. I'm looking at using The Crane. I don't have braces yet. I'm in the planning stages now.
I'm wondering if it's possible to use reverse pull headgear without also using class III rubberbands between the top and bottom braces?
The reason I'm asking is because then it might not be necessary to have braces at all, but something like the video below where the headgear pulls against a permanent retainer type thing. Is that picture actual possible like they show it, without braces (brackets+wires)?
Thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGdbLOocydM
14
Cranial Restructuring / Re: The Crane
« on: August 16, 2014, 09:19:25 am »
I'm very interested in getting the crane, to use for pull headgear for orthodontics to correct my bite, instead of the type of headgear that would push on my chin/face...
I would like to understand this. Can you explain this in another way? Why doesn't raising the post make it pull upward? Where are the hooks you mention - on your teeth or on the crane?
Also, I understand you sleep on your back. But, is it possible to sleep on your side with the crane?
Thanks.
Sadly no. Since the hooks are angled upwards, they make upward pulling over a certain angle quite impossible. I'm not too impressed with it. It is possible to raise the "arm" up but that reduces it's angle so I have to say that I currently find it suboptimal. Might be a size issue (I have a medium) and it's perhaps solved by using something to keep the elastics in place. Rubber seals or something similar. I'm working on it though!
I would like to understand this. Can you explain this in another way? Why doesn't raising the post make it pull upward? Where are the hooks you mention - on your teeth or on the crane?
Also, I understand you sleep on your back. But, is it possible to sleep on your side with the crane?
Thanks.
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