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Posted by: TheNo0n3
« on: May 01, 2017, 06:56:29 am »

Quote from: Tyler on April 30, 2017, 05:19:37 pm

Actually, I have read it is not wise to consume too much protein in fact, not more than a few grams per day, because otherwise the muscles can grow too much and put pressure on the bones because the muscle expands both inwardly and outwardly, which squeezes them and compresses them. So gaining mass like a body-builder might actually be leading to some herculean men who nevertheless have the squished bones of an elderly person underneath all that muscle ... But, it shows how the bones are not really like rock, but are a semi-hard matter, which is just slightly malleable...

Science over >.>

Will have to correct on that. Resistance training is proven to make bones thicker and harder, thus bodybuilders which are victims to crashes and so on have a higher chance of getting out alive. Protein intself wont make your muscles grow, you need to micro tears which are then repaired using protein as a repairing substance. Few grams is hardly plausible, a healthy normal individual needs between 0.4 and 0.8 pro kg of bodyweight where as a training individual between 1.4-1.8. There are numerous discussions on the right amounts, some say 1.4 is enough but for me personally it doesnt work, some say that you need more, like more than 2.2 even 3, but those are most likely funded by fitness supplement industries and are rigged. Steroids however are proven to add muscle mass without doing any resistance training, now for this case what you are saying might be true, because the bone doesnt get any resistance to adapt, but that is purely theoretical and just a thought, which I dont believe, but who knows, I am not too in on the subject. Protein wont make muscles bigger by itself but can help fat losing.
Posted by: Tyler
« on: April 30, 2017, 05:19:37 pm »

There is a different kind expansion that is able to take place, if I understand the reality correctly.

It will not actually achieve growth, because to my knowledge, there are fissures in the bone during childhood and puberty so new bone-matter can be constantly added, so that a child is even able to grow into an adult in the first place.

This means that there has to be a split in between two bones, so that as nourishment is consumed, new bone-matter can be created in between the two bone parts, which thereby allows the arms and the legs and everything that has a bone underlying it to expand and lengthen, because the new bone-matter pushes the two separate bones apart from each other while adding new bone-matter between them, so that eventually when everything becomes fused together, an adult-sized bone results.

So eventually that probably fuses to be sure, since the growing period finalises itself in adulthood, or whenever. It's a mystery to me why some people would have that happen in their 20s and why some people would not have that happen until they are 70, but who knows what all is possible in the creative. Definitely not me.

But anyway, to my knowledge bone is not actually hard like rock. It is slightly bendable, although too sudden force causes it to break. You can't bend rock though, because it's too hard. But bone is not quite so hard, if I know reality rightly, because bone is just made of minerals, and some bones can be eaten after all after being boiled, however a rock would still be too hard even if it was boiled for a week.

So the thing about face-pulling and whatnot, to my best knowledge, is not that new growth is being created, but rather the consistently applied force is reshaping the bone that is already existing, and therefore very gradually moving the bone into a different shape. And any expansion of the palette that results would be akin to how if a person pushed into clay bowl when it was soft enough, they can actually cause it to expand and open out at the bottom, thereby creating a larger bowl, however no extra clay-material is added, because what is there is just reshaped.

I actually wonder if it would even be possible to build on the bones a little bit, if all the right nourishment was taken in, and actually since we all make this effort, in my opinion it may be wise to start adding some calcium to the whole nourishment plan, since we should want to have stable bones and not brittle ones as well, right?

Actually, I have read it is not wise to consume too much protein in fact, not more than a few grams per day, because otherwise the muscles can grow too much and put pressure on the bones because the muscle expands both inwardly and outwardly, which squeezes them and compresses them. So gaining mass like a body-builder might actually be leading to some herculean men who nevertheless have the squished bones of an elderly person underneath all that muscle ... But, it shows how the bones are not really like rock, but are a semi-hard matter, which is just slightly malleable...

Science over >.>
Posted by: Progress
« on: April 03, 2017, 05:47:43 am »

Quote from: MaxillaMaximum on April 03, 2017, 03:20:24 am
It is not subjective if it is based on mathematics (forces of pressure and how they affect the jaw) and actual case examples.

Although the reality is governed by both discovered and undiscovered mathematical laws, neither you or your doctor uses mathematics to determine the potential for facial changes. No one does. You can get an approximate idea of how much static force is needed to influence bone (which is somewhere around 500 g), but that's about as far as math can be useful here. And not even that estimation has been achieved through raw mathematics, but experimentation.

The case examples you've been shown in which adult palatal expansion hasn't been achieved don't invalidate other case examples where adult palatal expansion has been achieved (such as the one I linked earlier), but the existence of the latter DOES invalidate your doctor's claim about palatal expansion being impossible for adults.

Quote from: MaxillaMaximum on April 03, 2017, 03:20:24 am
You have to understand that when you get a phd you aren't presenting "subjective opinions", but actual, rational research based on case examples and logical, mathematical reasoning.

In other words, your argument is that people with phd must be objectively right and have access to superior logic and reasoning, because they have a phd. Take a moment to appreciate how stupidly naive argument that is.

In an age where most studies are available for all to read, there is nothing that gives a person with phd an exclusive scientific or intellectual advantage over an unemployed asshat who has access to the internet and is not completely incabable of critical thinking.

Doctors form subjective opinions, theories and conclusions based on the studies they read just like everyone else does. They're not almighty any more than you and me. They are prone to error and bias like every other human being.


Quote from: MaxillaMaximum on April 03, 2017, 03:20:24 am
If there is not enough force - nothing will happen.

Here I agree with you. But on the other hand you say:

Quote from: MaxillaMaximum on April 03, 2017, 03:20:24 am
no matter how strong you push you do not have the natural means of moving or reshaping the bone.

Which one do you actually believe to be true? That with enough force change will happen, or that no amount of force will result in change?
Posted by: MaxillaMaximum
« on: April 03, 2017, 03:20:24 am »

It is not subjective if it is based on mathematics (forces of pressure and how they affect the jaw) and actual case examples.

You have to understand that when you get a phd you aren't presenting "subjective opinions", but actual, rational research based on case examples and logical, mathematical reasoning. They have to actually calculate the forces in play in order to achieve whatever bone advancement you need. If there is not enough force - nothing will happen.

For some adults - yes, maybe. But for most - the bone has been fused and no matter how strong you push you do not have the natural means of moving or reshaping the bone.
Posted by: Progress
« on: April 02, 2017, 02:44:30 pm »

Quote from: MaxillaMaximum on April 02, 2017, 01:27:16 pm
Quote from: Progress on April 02, 2017, 06:54:00 am
Well it must be true if an orthodontist said it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4185298/

Quote
The start and the advance of fusion of the midpalatal suture vary greatly with age and sex. Persson and Thilander observed fusion of the midpalatal suture in subjects ranging from 15 to 19 years old. On the other hand, patients at ages 27, 32, 54, and even 71 years have been reported to have no signs of fusion of this suture. Such findings indicate that variability in the developmental stages of fusion of the midpalatal suture is not related directly to chronologic age, particularly in young adults.

Seems like a hit or a miss. Some adults may achieve expansion with non-invasive procedures, while others won't.

Yes, because she is not some random ortho or internet quack, but one of the best orthos/surgeons in the country and a phd in her field.

I believe you, but that hardly changes anything. A subjective opinion of a single expert does not weigh much against even a single study, let alone multiple case studies, no matter how much respect he/she commands. Here's a case study about the woman whose pictures were posted earlier:

http://www.happykansasfaces.com/uploads/2/9/2/7/29276427/cranio_uk_article.pdf

As you can see, her results were achieved with non-invasive techniques (apart from releasing tongue tie with a laser). Whether or not similar results are achievable for all adults though, I have no idea. But it certainly is the case for some.
Posted by: MaxillaMaximum
« on: April 02, 2017, 01:27:16 pm »

Quote from: Progress on April 02, 2017, 06:54:00 am
Well it must be true if an orthodontist said it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4185298/

Quote
The start and the advance of fusion of the midpalatal suture vary greatly with age and sex. Persson and Thilander observed fusion of the midpalatal suture in subjects ranging from 15 to 19 years old. On the other hand, patients at ages 27, 32, 54, and even 71 years have been reported to have no signs of fusion of this suture. Such findings indicate that variability in the developmental stages of fusion of the midpalatal suture is not related directly to chronologic age, particularly in young adults.

Seems like a hit or a miss. Some adults may achieve expansion with non-invasive procedures, while others won't.

Yes, because she is not some random ortho or internet quack, but one of the best orthos/surgeons in the country and a phd in her field.
Posted by: TheNo0n3
« on: April 02, 2017, 11:32:26 am »

Quote from: MeltedFace on April 02, 2017, 10:04:51 am
Orthotropics and natural Orthodontics OFTEN do palette expansion without surgery for adults. Find a different person who understands this procedure please - its worth your time.
this ^

Plus this woman

had palette expansion at around age 50, you see how things are
Posted by: MeltedFace
« on: April 02, 2017, 10:04:51 am »

Orthotropics and natural Orthodontics OFTEN do palette expansion without surgery for adults. Find a different person who understands this procedure please - its worth your time.
Posted by: Progress
« on: April 02, 2017, 06:54:00 am »

Well it must be true if an orthodontist said it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4185298/

Quote
The start and the advance of fusion of the midpalatal suture vary greatly with age and sex. Persson and Thilander observed fusion of the midpalatal suture in subjects ranging from 15 to 19 years old. On the other hand, patients at ages 27, 32, 54, and even 71 years have been reported to have no signs of fusion of this suture. Such findings indicate that variability in the developmental stages of fusion of the midpalatal suture is not related directly to chronologic age, particularly in young adults.

Seems like a hit or a miss. Some adults may achieve expansion with non-invasive procedures, while others won't.


Posted by: MaxillaMaximum
« on: April 02, 2017, 05:14:30 am »

Here it goes.

I asked my orthodontist if it is possible to use palate expanders to increase the width of maxilla.

She said that it can push teeth outwards, but not actually expand the palate bone (maxilla) as it has been fused after age of 20 or so.

It literally has to be sawn open along the seams into 6 chunks or so and then a palate expander should be used to restructure and widen the narrow maxilla.

Just wanted to inform you guys of this.

I'm not sure about the face pulling. Maybe that would be possible. But that is what she said about the maxilla widening after the bones have fused.