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Posted by: reenochrobinson
« on: July 14, 2017, 05:09:17 pm »

Quote from: TheGreatWork on July 14, 2017, 04:44:19 pm
I'm on board with what you're saying, the dentist has the same philosophy 99% of what I'm looking for.

However, Mike Mew says he tries to expand ~1mm per week in adults, saying that this rate of change (or near it) is not only fully possible but best for transferring the force through the entire skull so all bones (like cheekbones and upper maxilla) will grow and shift during the expansion.

The dentists I have consulted who subscribe to adult palate expansion (anywhere) don't do this rate,  they do it very slowly to so that you only come in once a month and they can monitor a bunch of cases slowly over time. This causes (according to theories) the aloveor process to be re-shaped by the local force but isn't enough force/time (ie impulse in physics) to travel to a wider area and cause growth at multiple skull sutures.

That is to say, they push hard and slow enough to cause the mouth to respond, but not enough to cause the entire skull to respond along with it

It sounds like you've really thought this through. I think orthodontists sometimes make adjustments to the wires on the expander to try and align the teeth as the arch expands and sometimes grind down some of the acrylic as the palate becomes less vaulted. Asdfasdf123's old thread seems to have been removed where he reported that the "amateur" expander maxes out around 8mm. I wonder if the appliances you would get from an orthodontist would offer more expansion. I suppose if you needed more you could always order a second expander with new impressions, but the lag time between finishing the first round of expansion and starting a second might be an issue. Did the orthodontist you consulted with say anything about expanding the bottom arch? My bottom teeth seem to be tilted inward a bit in the back and have some crowding in the front. I feel like a bottom expander might be helpful for me, but others have suggested that the bottom will adjust on its own after the top is expanded. Anyway, good luck if you decide to proceed with self-treatment, and please let us know how it goes! 
Posted by: TheGreatWork
« on: July 14, 2017, 04:44:19 pm »

I'm on board with what you're saying, the dentist has the same philosophy 99% of what I'm looking for.

However, Mike Mew says he tries to expand ~1mm per week in adults, saying that this rate of change (or near it) is not only fully possible but best for transferring the force through the entire skull so all bones (like cheekbones and upper maxilla) will grow and shift during the expansion.

The dentists I have consulted who subscribe to adult palate expansion (anywhere) don't do this rate,  they do it very slowly to so that you only come in once a month and they can monitor a bunch of cases slowly over time. This causes (according to theories) the aloveor process to be re-shaped by the local force but isn't enough force/time (ie impulse in physics) to travel to a wider area and cause growth at multiple skull sutures.

That is to say, they push hard and slow enough to cause the mouth to respond, but not enough to cause the entire skull to respond along with it
Posted by: reenochrobinson
« on: July 14, 2017, 02:04:35 pm »

Quote from: TheGreatWork on July 14, 2017, 11:27:05 am
$8500 vs $250. It's $1000 alone to do all the imaging and tests before he'll order an expander.

Or is it possible to just ask the ortho to make you a device and let you do it yourself?

No, I'm sure they wouldn't order the device for you without the initial workup and the expectation that they would be monitoring your treatment. The cost is definitely a factor, but I think I would feel better having someone who ostensibly knows what they are doing, if they are philosophically on board with your goals, to help if something goes wrong or to reassure you that you're doing it right. Even if everything goes smoothly, you might require some minor corrections to get all of the teeth aligned after you are done with the expander. If I could find the right orthodontist and could afford the treatment, I think that's what I would do.
Posted by: TheGreatWork
« on: July 14, 2017, 11:27:05 am »

$8500 vs $250. It's $1000 alone to do all the imaging and tests before he'll order an expander.

Or is it possible to just ask the ortho to make you a device and let you do it yourself?
Posted by: reenochrobinson
« on: July 13, 2017, 09:20:23 pm »

Quote from: TheGreatWork on July 13, 2017, 04:43:30 pm
I just got done the consultation. He says the ALF isn't enough force for me right now, he can finish with it but he needs to start with an acrylic expander.

And it'll take ~2 years. I think I'm just going to buy an expander

Of course, the day I find this out is the day that BracesShop stops taking orders until July 27. Can you believe that luck? I suppose I'll just wait, unless anyone knows an alternative to that website

If you found an ortho who's willing to oversee your treatment, why not get the acrylic expander from him?
Posted by: TheGreatWork
« on: July 13, 2017, 04:43:30 pm »

I just got done the consultation. He says the ALF isn't enough force for me right now, he can finish with it but he needs to start with an acrylic expander.

And it'll take ~2 years. I think I'm just going to buy an expander

Of course, the day I find this out is the day that BracesShop stops taking orders until July 27. Can you believe that luck? I suppose I'll just wait, unless anyone knows an alternative to that website
Posted by: Brosem1987
« on: July 13, 2017, 07:46:48 am »

The ALF sounds great, but it's ridiculously expensive.

I guess it depends who your dentist or Ortho is, but I was quoted 8k total for both upper and lower.

Plus 200+ for every adjustment 2 weeks.

Plus all of the starting requirements such as 3D xray scans + recommend ling + lab frenects.

Plus the advised osteopatic adjustment 200+ every month.

I was advised to that ALF can take a while several years plus.

My estimate 15-30 grand.

Unless you can diy ALF and do everything yourself like people seem to be doing with the bracesshop, or you have an amaz
Posted by: TheGreatWork
« on: July 12, 2017, 02:02:00 pm »

It seems to fit perfectly into the collective philosophy we all have about getting expansion and forward growth - it just mimicks proper tongue posture 24/7 and tries to do it in such a way that the patient can heal themselves by releasing the cranial bones allowing growth at the sutures (according to their official website and multiple dentists online). Combined with NCR this seems like the magic bullet to have the face grow how it was supposed to. I'm trying not to get over exited but I'm pretty exited

I've got an appointment tomorrow to ask about it, I'm still very weary about trusting dentists but since I have had extractions it seems that this may be helpful: My tongue doesn't maintain pressure at night because of palate size, so my results are super slow. Having the appliance up there 24/7 pushing out and forward gently should help.

I'll let you guys know what happens. But does anyone have experience with the appliance, or opinions? I've searched the forum and seen positive reviews.