Author Topic: Sleeping on the Back without Pillows (for Crane)  (Read 1055 times)

slamo28

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Sleeping on the Back without Pillows (for Crane)
« on: April 16, 2017, 11:44:14 pm »
I've been looking at all the posts about how headgear protraction appliances are so uncomfortable to wear at night that said person gives up. that's unfortunate because i believe if one was to sleep comfortably during the night with some sort of facepulling appliance, that would be enough for the patient to see some forward growth. Mike mew said that the forward growth in adults is possible, its just that adults will not go about their day with the headgear on, which leaves the nighttime treatment as the only option.

So i wonder if those who have the appliance have tried sleeping on their backs with out a pillow. My myofunctional therapist taught me the importance of sleeping on the back but in a way that involved 4 pillows. one for the neck, two for the arms, a rolled up towel for the lumbar region and one for the legs. It worked.

THEN i read Claiming powers post on head posture. and that changed the game. When i fixed my head posture (i can go into detail about this in another post) the back of my head became flat and i was able to lay my head on the mattress. it was very uncomfortable at first, but as i progressed in myofunctional therpay, the lower jaw and tongue came forward and it became a much more comfortable position. Im in the point now where using a pillow seems unnatural and if i use one pillow i have to use 3 more to balance out the rest of my spine.

I dont have the crane or any facepulling appliance yet, but i belive that i will be able to sleep through the night comfortably with it once i get. I think in order to sleep with the crane at night one must master sleeping on the back without a pillow with back of the head completely flat on mattress while the crane forces pull.  Whatchyall think?

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MeltedFace

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I keep trying to sleep on my back but my jaw swings open... I lay on my side and keep it shut with a hand under my chin at night. I'd LOVE to sleep on my back!

slamo28

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Melted Face, try putting duct tape over your mouth when you sleep. My myo therapist advised that for me one time and it worked. Do you plan going to see a nonfunctional therapist at some point?

MeltedFace

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Hi! When I can make enough money for things, I'll happily get help. Duct tape on my face sounds like... for me it's too Nightmare on Elm Street-ish you know? Maybe medical tape... I'd do that...

slamo28

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Thats a great question Selina. The tongue isn't going to move the entire maxillary bone forward but rather expand the palate to optimal dimension to house the tongue. The pushing force that the tongue does only affects the palete and not the position of the maxilla. I have been doing myofunctinoal therapy for 2 years and 3 months and have noticed very little change in forward maxillary growth, however, since my upper palate is expanding, my lower jaw come forward and is more parallel to the floor.

TheNo0n3

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Thats a great question Selina. The tongue isn't going to move the entire maxillary bone forward but rather expand the palate to optimal dimension to house the tongue. The pushing force that the tongue does only affects the palete and not the position of the maxilla. I have been doing myofunctinoal therapy for 2 years and 3 months and have noticed very little change in forward maxillary growth, however, since my upper palate is expanding, my lower jaw come forward and is more parallel to the floor.
Mike Mew himself says that as the palate widens it comes forwards and the assymetries fix themselves, not only that, there are more than one testimonials out there that through hard gum chewing and mewing that maxilla has significantly come forward and the zygomatic bone is supporting even better, one of these testimonials has been posted here more than once, from me including. in this video Mew says "As the upper jaw widens, it moves forwards and recenters itself." Now, of course, I have been on this topic since 4 months and you seem to be for a far longer time, so you might know more than me and I would be happy(well not really, I prefer it to be this way haha) if you can show me so proof that says otherwise.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 03:36:02 pm by TheNo0n3 »

TheNo0n3

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I have been doing myofunctinoal therapy for 2 years and 3 months and have noticed very little change in forward maxillary growth, however, since my upper palate is expanding, my lower jaw come forward and is more parallel to the floor.
Reading your post again, I think that there might be true in both statements, what I mean is, that the maxilla does come forward but not as much as I was imagining 10 seconds ago :D . That would explain why so many mewer's faces look a bit like a slope from the side, Mike Mew included, whom I watched again in a video yesterday and was like woah. But the nose really straightens, which is a sign for forward growth
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 03:37:29 pm by TheNo0n3 »

Progress

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I also find that hard to agree with. Tongue and facepulling devices are both used to generate about the same amount of force against against the same area of the maxilla (the upper mouth) and towards the same general direction. Either both of these can change the face, or neither of them can. In the end, palate pretty much is maxilla and any actual palatal expansion results in forward expansion / growth of the whole maxilla.

Facepulling is superior only in a situation where mouth size & head posture don't allow the tongue to comfortably push the palate with solid amount of mechanical force all day long. Once proper posterior tongue posture is possible, facepulling becomes redundant, except in the case where you tend to mouthbreathe on your sleep and want to keep making progress through the nights.

TheNo0n3

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Facepulling is superior only in a situation where mouth size & head posture don't allow the tongue to comfortably push the palate with solid amount of mechanical force all day long. Once proper posterior tongue posture is possible, facepulling becomes redundant, except in the case where you tend to mouthbreathe on your sleep and want to keep making progress through the nights.
You think? Damn, I hope so, now a month and a half in serious mewing I can more confidently say that I can keep the posterior without much problems. But for real tho, as much as dangerous and ridiculous belt facepulling(considering we are at the topic of facepulling) came to be, it yields the best results I have seen, not only the maxilla comes forward and widens significantly with it, but it also goes up, like a lot. That asian dude and the other user in the forum which did it, widened their skull and shortened their face a lot, it was impressive, excluding the massive assymetry for which you dont even need a trained eye to notice, but no one addressed it, which it would be cool if that problem gets solved. Not that I dont see that tongue and chewing do it too, but like 2-3 millimeters if at all and havent seen by most people.

That slope I am talking about, I came to remember I saw in the lookism forum to be called ante face, however, they were talking about natural ante faces, like for example Andre 3000, he has significant ante face. Like, how does that even form, I mean by people of color I have seen it to be a natural thing and most have it, but by caucasians its not something that is usually seen and if seen its not much, but this mewing thing really causes it. The maxilla comes forward, the mandible comes forward a bit more and bam, the forehead misses it and stays back, but why, will originally the forehead be more forward if the maxilla was originally more forward, is everything really that connected? How does the bone grow for this to happen, I would be happy to have us a topic on that.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 04:10:46 pm by TheNo0n3 »

slamo28

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If the tongue was enough to cause maxillary protraction then why is Mike Mew focusing all his efforts on perfecting facepulling headgear? Ive been tracking patients who have been doing myofunctional therapy for 4 plus years, like literally stalking their social media accounts to see recent pictures and i was actually quite disappointed with what i saw. I saw no semblance of forward growth movement.  I've been tracking my maxilla and myofunctional therapy has has only expanded my upper palate, causing the lower jaw to come forward. Dont get me wrong i look a hell of a lot better than before. But  still have a rather concave profile and A LOT of sclera under my eyes still showing.

At the very LEAST the tongue expansion will make the face more symmetrical and who knows maybe over 10 years one would see forward growth. But long term light forces (the crane, i dont belive in helmet pulling seems dangerous) will definetly work. The ISSUE is can you SLEEP THROUGH THE NIGHT WITH IT.

Progress

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If the tongue was enough to cause maxillary protraction then why is Mike Mew focusing all his efforts on perfecting facepulling headgear?


As he has often said, adopting and maintaining proper posterior tongue posture is extremely difficult without first having adequate space in the mouth. Facepulling gives a good kickstart for those whose structure is too recessed to do anything else.

slamo28

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If the tongue was enough to cause maxillary protraction then why is Mike Mew focusing all his efforts on perfecting facepulling headgear?


As he has often said, adopting and maintaining proper posterior tongue posture is extremely difficult without first having adequate space in the mouth. Facepulling gives a good kickstart for those whose structure is too recessed to do anything else.

That's what the DNA appliance and ALF appliance is for. Forcing those walls open so the back tongue can come up. But i'm sure there are extreme cases of repressiveness where facepulling is needed. Either way i believe that change we are all looking for lies in some sort of protraction device. The tongue will widen palate and bring lower jaw forward but not the maxilla as a whole.

Progress

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change we are all looking for lies in some sort of protraction device. The tongue will widen palate and bring lower jaw forward but not the maxilla as a whole.
What makes you think that? You have not given any reasons as to why facepulling would be more effective than mewing in bringing the maxilla forward. From my point of view the difference is inisignificant, since the forces that are generated are almost identical in both mewing and facepulling. If you think I'm wrong, please tell my why.

I feel like one of us doesn't have a clue what they're talking about here. You say that while the tongue can widen the palate and bring the mandible forward, it won't bring the maxilla forward. This axiom has two problems:

1. In order to bring the mandible forward, the maxilla has to come forward too, because the location of the bite is directly determined by the position of the upper jaw / maxilla and the teeth attached to it.

2. The act of palatal expansion itself expands the maxilla forward through the suture, which makes your statement about the tongue being able to expand the palate but not induce forward growth contradictory.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 08:16:28 am by Progress »

slamo28

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1. In order to bring the mandible forward, the maxilla has to come forward too, because the location of the bite is directly determined by the position of the upper jaw / maxilla and the teeth attached to it.

2. The act of palatal expansion itself expands the maxilla forward through the suture, which makes your statement about the tongue being able to expand the palate but not induce forward growth contradictory.

1. I'm proposing that the palate and the maxilla are two separate entities; the palate simply being the roof of the mouth, and the maxilla being the mid face bone that is much less affected by palatal expansion than we think. So when lower jaw has come forward its because the palate has grown, but not the maxilla.


2. I do not think that palatal expansion causes forward growth through any suture because I feel the palate is too impressionable, too malleable. I think the palate absorbs all tongue forces, leaving none for the maxilla as a whole. Which is why i feel a protraction device is necessary because it can induce that extra long term force that doesn't get absorbed by the palate.




« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 12:40:37 pm by slamo28 »

Progress

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1. I'm proposing that the palate and the maxilla are two separate entities; the palate simply being the roof of the mouth, and the maxilla being the mid face bone that is much less affected by palatal expansion than we think. So when lower jaw has come forward its because the palate has grown, but not the maxilla.


2. I do not think that palatal expansion causes forward growth through any suture because I feel the palate is too impressionable, too malleable. I think the palate absorbs all tongue forces, leaving none for the maxilla as a whole. Which is why i feel a protraction device is necessary because it can induce that extra long term force that doesn't get absorbed by the palate.

1. On what grounds are you proposing that? On Google in every image of the skull where maxilla is highlighted, the highlighted area includes the palate. This is what Wikipedia says about the maxilla: 
Quote
The maxilla in animals is the upper jawbone formed from the fusion of two maxillary bones. The upper jaw includes the frontal portion of the palate of the mouth.


Palate is part of the maxilla bone, so if palate grows, maxilla grows, because palate is the only link between the two halves of the maxilla:



Growth through the suture means the whole bone will widen. And because the maxilla is attached to and kept in place by the other bones of the skull (mainly by the sphenoid, zygomatic and frontal bone), expansion through the suture will inevitably tip the maxilla upwards and forwards as the two halves open wider, in the same motion a pair of doors does, to make room for the new bone mass around the mid-palatal suture

Of course, "growth" is a very vague term and we may be talking about a bit different things (remodelling vs expansion vs structural movement). I guess growth could also happen through the sutures between maxilla & zygomatic bones (and all the other bones the maxilla is attached to).

2. I see. Yet, assuming that you're right about palate being malleable enough to fully absorb the forces from the tongue, what makes you believe any kind of protraction device attached to the palate would circumverent this problem? Changing the medium through which the force against maxilla is delivered does not suddenly make the palate any less absorbing of those forces. Do I make sense?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 01:51:09 pm by Progress »