Break the Matrix

Hey, I'm around still.

Actually you got a good point there, I did try to warn people about the possible risks. I don't think that makes the whole thing a false promise, and from looking at certain images to me it appears to me, in my current understanding, that people who have done it right have had success.

I wrote that part about caution partly because I had written so many "scientific" style posts trying to hypothesise about how it all worked, and I got into the whole spirit of ingenuity and tried to help people in the best way I could. I was also liking to feel part of a community since I was lonely in life, and there was that element of being selfishly in love with my own voice too. But later on, I was getting a lot of emails from people who, to me, seemed like they didn't want to think things through and just wanted somebody to tell them exactly what to do- like, put all the responsibility on somebody else.

I also pulled too hard myself although I actually think I overreacted to it now since I'm fine.

But I mean, we are not doctors here and this is "fringe science". So imo we have to be responsible for our own actions. But I was under the impression that a lot of people were hoping for somebody else to lie to them and promise the world to them- actually, I think that Plato's web site has a bit too much of that overzealous element, too. So, my warnings were meant to hopefully dispell that promise and since I'm not a doctor or a therapist and can't just live my life to talk people into making smart decisions, I wrote a bit heavy on the side of caution so that people who were not ready to take self-responsibility and exercise reason would just be scared and not even harm themselves or run the risk, since if somebody isn't willing to exercise reason and are just blindly acting, even with "the correct steps" in front of them they can still mess it up and hurt themselves.

But also, I'm just 26 here and was plenty scared about the idea of some people hurting themselves, so I made my own overreactions out of fear that my older posts might actually give people a false illusion that I'm some expert or doctor who is saying "this is 100% safe" when the real truth is, we're all just experimenting with a very undocumented and fringe science here and we could do some damage in the whole process of testing things out.

I'm actually glad you wrote the negative though. Maybe people will think about the positives and the negatives now, which is what I tried to encourage in the first place. And I only can hope you get your issue helped by a real doctor. I have to live with the burden of guilt now and may never be able to get it gone, but I made my own foolish, reckless deeds so I reap what I sowed.

I don't know the truth, but to me the pic of that guy "patient zero" looks very striking.

Now that I think about it, though, he could have just been sick in the first pick and then in the second pic he could have been healthier, giving him back his normal handsomeness. Somehow, the whole thing just looks.. well, better though. Like something he did refined his beauty, and brought it into a better version.

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Well, what should we do then?

We all are here as a community, for better or worse. And we want to be able to communicate ideas to each other, but want to make sure that others don't just blindly follow. Should we put up some disclaimers or something, and put up a clear statement that these are just self-initiated efforts to explore what kinds of modifications the natural physicality of the human body permits to be done on it?

I'm not the owner and not even a "hero member", I don't even like that name and wish I could change it because I'm really more of a curious and sometimes reckless scientist, and no hero. But I suppose what we can all recognise and agree on, is there should be some kind of greater acknowledgement of the possible negative and dangers alongside the proposed positive theories and speculations.

I don't think anybody but a real sadist and real scumbag wants to hurt anybody, but we also are human and made mistakes so we could learn from them, and now I can at least say that I did.

Quote from: Doumi on January 18, 2017, 06:19:02 am

Hello, may I ask which expander have you bought? I thought that there wasn't really anything risky about expanding, since if you have a narrow jaw, widening is always beneficial.

I read that you should turn the screw 1-2 times a day for rapid palatal expansion and that will result in a gap between the front teeth which should get closed naturally by time.

If you expand once per two days, you probably won't see a gap because your teeth will accomodate to the new position fairly quickly.

The palatal expander is currently my only option as my situation isn't so bad that I'd risk going under the knife.

A doctor said here: https://www.realself.com/question/removable-palate-exapanders-effective-fixed, " The key is to have physiologic expansion with a removable appliance putting pressure to the roof of the mouth, not the teeth and using no more than 2-3 activations (1/4 mm each) per week.  "

So watch out with how fast your expanding. To be safe I'd keep it to 1-2 "activations" per week. Also "activations" is a loose word, a different palate expander might expand by a different amount per turn.You should measure how much your palate expander expands per turn and keep it below 1/4 mm per week.

I say I have some pretty good progress from a myobrace, jawzrsize and  good tongue posture. I have some pictures that show progress. They aren't perfect medical quality photos  (seems like the only progress pics people have are shitty ones, haha.), but they're better than a lot of the ones I have seen. Im still debating if I want to put myself on the interwebs, I might do it after I finish my palate expansion/ face pulling (havent started yet). I had a receding lower jaw that I was able to move forward with the myobrace/jawzrsize through muscle training. I stopped mouth breathing in my sleep and my nose is never clogged.  I had very week masseters; they're alright now, so I've gained some good lower jaw width. The jawzrsize is pretty safe, but the gains are limited. The myobrace has done some expansion, but its probably mostly teeth tipping. The myobrace does help with facial posture though, especially during sleeping.

If I could go back, I wouldn't put pics of myself up. I was dumb and did that recklessly.

What you're saying, OP, is really right. People just show up and see the positive, then if I may say it in other words, they are just feeling a false sense of security and then going off and potentially harming themselves. Me, I personally won't try NCR on myself again because I had 2 experiences that frightened me a lot. In one, a finger cot blew up and I still don't know whether there is a piece of finger cot lodged somewhere in my sinus. And then in another instance, the balloon expanded out of my nose and slid down toward my windpipe, and while it didn't choke me and I had a pair of scissors handy and stayed my nerves so I could think, I got a real bad image of what could happen. I think I posted about it but in case I didn't I'm sharing it now, because I do NOT want to have anybody's death on my conscience just because I made a foolish error of carelessness.

Actually, the more I think of it, I wonder about just contacting the people who own that "createaforum" web site and just requesting the whole thing be taken down. We could start a new forum with all the right warnings in place, and put our learned experiences out in the front and centre. At least then we are making it right to the best of our ability. We really learned a lot, I can tell it from these posts, so we could make it better. And my posts are about done for the night but a lot was said, so I wanted to reply back in my turn to each one.

I'd love to see some before after pics as proof to that face pulling works, but since the bones FUSE after age of 20 or so, I am not sure it is possible without actual Le Fort II or Le Fort III surgery.

Face bones do not fuse like regular bone nor do sutures... I'd highly recommend watching "Orthotropics" videos by Mike Mew. Traditional understanding of bone movement and growth vs. Orthotropics is really worth a look.

Quote from: MaxillaMaximum on April 02, 2017, 05:40:03 am

If you are over age of 20 or so then palate expansion can't work unless you saw the bone open in surgery. The bones have fused at this point. At least that is what my ortho told me. I spoke in detail with her about this.

Don't trust doctors so blindly man. There were some orthodontists which even said what the Mews preach is bullsh*t, which is not, I am not sure if you know about Mew tho, check him out, Orthotropics is the channel in youtube as it was said above. Plus there are photos on the website and just write some keywords in google images

She is not "just a doctor". She is one of the top orthos in my country with a PHD. She has done a lot of research on this and has watched Mew as well. We discussed it and she said it was partly correct and that muscles influence a lot, but once the bone has fused they cut it up in 6 parts and then do palate expansion, because otherwise it will just push the teeth outside without actually widening the bone.

My doc agreed with most of what Mew says, but the real question here is about palatal expansion in adults. And it makes total sense that IF your palate plates have FUSED, you will just push your teeth out, which will sort of give you a wider smile, but might as well cause issues and won't give you the jaw expansion you need for aesthetics.

She showed me an actual example how in people who have deformed, uber narrow jaws and are above age of 25 or so they saw the palate in 6 parts basically. Like 6 little blocks. Then they can slowly, with palate expanders completely transform the jaw into anything.

This ortho is also against extractions. She also says that muscles play a big role into shaping of bone tissue.

The thing here you have to understand are the forces in play. You need to exert MORE force on the bone that is being used to holding it together. Can you achieve that just by holding your tongue properly? I'm not sure...

I'd really like to see actual before and afters where adults have achieved significant changes with no braces and no surgery.

I got braces and it improved my bite and my face got more aesthetic, but it was due to braces and bite, not due to change in palate.

"You need braces and surgery!" - RUN! See Orthotropics working on people everywhere of all ages

Both of these are extremely effective in most cases. Especially if you avoid extractions. There are cases of literal subhuman looking creatures transform into models because of double jaw surgery.