Break the Matrix
General Discussion => Cranial Restructuring => Topic started by: Mike Mew on December 19, 2013, 07:53:28 am
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Dear All,
I am an orthodontist, one of the few third generation orthodontists and son of possibly the most controversial orthodontist in the world, who is wanting to find out what is really happening, in regard to the cause, pathology and cure of malocclusion and its relationship to other problems with the head and neck- TMD, sleep apnoea, glue ear, back and neck problems, sinusitis, deviated nasal septums etc etc......
Over the last 2 years I've visited practitioners all over the world in an attempt to find the best ways to move the maxilla up and forwards- which I feel is an integral part of correcting this problem. More recently talking to Dean Howell. I am very broad minded, and want to seek your help but also want to hear more than just your opinions or hearsay. The era of doctor knows best is truly over, and as I am trying to design the perfect protocol I thought that it might be a good idea to consult people that are effectively experimenting on them selves, since amongst you there is a great deal of latent knowledge.
If you are interested in what I am doing then here are some links;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtlACZ6uKpE
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Orthodont/
https://www.facebook.com/orthotropics
https://www.facebook.com/YCrookedTeeth
http://www.orthotropics.co.uk/
You will notice that I am using my real name, please respect this and give polite informative responses. At times in medicine we have to agree to disagree, I'm not a novice at this procedure in children and am arguably achieving the best facial changes ever gained in children. Its my mission to improve this and work on adults as well. Your help would be greatly appreciated, my specific goal is to design the perfect headgear and oral appliance, and to work out the best level of wear of the headgear.
Thank you very much in advance,
Best wishes,
Mike
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I saute you sir for your dedication and comprehensive thinking. I have similar aspirations of figuring out the best way to completely optimize the skull and structure of the body and am in the process of learning and taking action. I would love to speak with you further.
Best Regards,
Ryan
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Welcome to the forum Mike Mew! :)
We are very happy to see you here! Looking forward to your posts, and know that many are going to be helped.
Enjoy!
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The first thing, that I wanted to ask is how long you feel that you need to wear the headbrace to gain an effect. In orthodontics I would ask an adult to wear it for 18hrs.
I was shocked to hear Dean suggesting 15min, it seems crazy, do you have any of you opinions or better some hard evidence?
M
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Hello Dr. Mew, very glad and surprised to see you here. Your open-mindedness really makes me feel better about the medecine community.
I have no idea how Dr. Howell's FaceMax Helmet works but I suppose it's very similar to the one designed by Dr. Amir (Located in Putney, London). Also worth noting is that Dr. Amir is also working with Dr. Howell for optimizing symmetry in his patients.
Here is someone going through face-pulling and NCR and sharing their experience on a blog : http://orgoneproducts.org/blog/category/palate-expansion/
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Mr.Mew. If it's in fact the real you than I must say that I'm impressed. It's very uncommon for practitioners to be open minded. Let alone to actually ask patients about their view om things. Have you checked Plato's site out? He has actually gone through the whole process and is an avid proponent of do it yourself face-pulling.
As for my own experience. I'm currently undergoing treatment with self litigating brackets, upper and lower "ALF's". There had been some movement but I still have a year to go. As my teeth continously misigned due to aggressive nighttime bruxism, I ended up with a worsening posture and other horrible cognitive and physical ailments. Building up my bite with composite relieves most of these. I do hope that more practitioners adopt your line of thinking and start helping people instead of butchering people.
/Knoppe
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Thanks, could anyone give me feedback about there levels of time that they wear their head-braces. In orthodontics we usually think that 8hrs is the minimum for any changes. But many of you are only using these devices for 15min or so, surely if such a short time gained an effect then a heavy meal could also affect facial change. It does not make sense but I am open to what you think?
M
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Also I knew Amir, nice guy visited my surgery to see what we were doing but played his cards very close to his chest and I was never very sure of his actual beliefs, which is always a shame. Does anyone know where he has gone to?
M
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Not sure Mike, but last I heard, Amir was still very active and practicing in the UK.
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In fact, Dr. Amir is still practicing in Putney, London and has been a big help to the MS sufferers.
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I've had several patients come to me saying that he is no longer practicing, he would certainly owe them a call if he still is, but he's not responded to anything.
Apart from this, has anyone gained any information on wear times or types of head brace.
I've had several people congratulate me for the effort to trying to ask the membership of this site but i've had almost nothing useful back. As I mention I am very interested in what you as people that tried these things at home, have to say. Please give me some feedback.
Thanks,
M
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Mr.Mew. I read that Dr.Amir had a stroke and is out of practice for that reason. I don't know if it's the truth but it's what I've read.
The recomended wearing time for the head brace is 30-45 min afaik. Try asking plato at:
http://jawpain-tmjtreatment.com/
His recomendations is the one people are following and he's answered buckloads of questions regarding the treatment. He's also a former patient of conventional orthodontics aswell as functional orthodontics and NCR.
I think you might've chosen the wrong forum/time to ask around on this particular forum seeing as there are quite few peopie actually posting.
I use my mask for about 30 min every other day. I don't know how much it helps but it gives a nice stretch. I also have bracers, ALF and dabble with self NCR. I'm done with my orthodontic treatment in 10 months and I might have a better idea about wearing times then. For now I stick to 30 min or less if I feel I've had enough.
Walrus on this forum has a different method which works more aggressive and with less static more powerful and pulsating pulls.
There's also a device called "the crane" which works like a recerse face mask:
http://www.thecranencrp.com/testimonialsdrpatient.html
This guy uses or used to use one. Ask him and check his update on recerse orthodontics out:
http://claimingpower.com/reverse-extraction-orthodontics-is-it-possible-for-adults-progress-report/
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Dr Mike Mew! What a joy to see you here. You are one of my idols, I'm a member of your Facebook group and I also heard your interview by Dr Steven Park (fascinating).
I have been face pulling according to jawpain-tmjtreatment.com for 3 months total and the thing that I noticed the most was the bone above my right canine came out. I've also done 35 sessions of "self NCR"/balloon therapy but honestly I haven't noticed a difference big enough that I can be sure is not part of my imagination. I've been wondering how much the age in adults matters. Tyler on this forum has had tremendous results. He is however only 18 and considered to be a young adult. (I'm 36.) Messiah Mews has also had great results where the maxilla came forward quite a bit, but she's having NCR done professionally and with a lot more force.
Before we move on with the conversation I think we might need to define forward maxillary expansion. To many laymen like myself this term appears quite vague. On one hand there is the maxilla as in Le Fort 1 osteotomy, there's also Le fort 2. What exact area in the skull are we talking about here? And which one of these two, if any, would be the equivalent of face pulling? Of orthotropics treatment? The crane? The ALF doing forward expansion?
On the other hand there's also expansion of the premaxilla. What appliance/technique takes care of this?
I guess another question would be, can you expand a big part of the maxilla by using an appliance that works from inside the mouth? Or would you need some kind of reverse headgear to do that?
Then there are the actual teeth. People like myself who have had traditional orthodontics often have front teeth that are slanted inwards. It looks like they should be perpendicular to the nose. Face pulling has not addressed this problem in me so far. (It should be said that I'm wearing a lateral Schwarz appliance with a wire over the front teeth 24/7.) Or would that problem take care of itself if the maxilla was moved upwards?
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Hi guys, it's been a WHILE since I've come back on here (Tyler I still have to get back at your responses man!) I'll be back soon... I've been pretty busy lately & I've finally found time to cool down & chill. Anyways, I just wanted to address the comment above by saying that Tyler is 23 (says it on its profile) so I don't where you got "18" from. Also, there have been people somewhat older than you (you're still fairly young) expand their palates 5-10+mm & see pretty good results. http://www.archwired.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=38460&sid=c36140dff602e9434380e594b963313f
I honestly think that, if you want to see GOOD results, you will have to ditch the self NCR & that palate expander you're currently using. It really sounds like you need professional help (DNA appliance provider + NCR/facemax practitioner. Trust me, it'll be be worth the money.
I will talk to you guys very soon & Tyler I did NOT forget about you!
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Why would I stop using the expander when that's the only thing that has helped so far? (I guess I didn't made sense in my last post.) I could stop using it and then try face pulling and ncr but a relapse at this point wouldn't be fun since I've invested a year in this treatment. So far ncr and fp are just theories to me without any proof that they would help me, whereas lateral expansion is very real.
What I'm using is very similar to a DNA appliance. I haven't done any forward expansion yet but I plan to. What Dr. Mew is asking though is whether face pulling for 30 or so minutes a day is helping people. My reply to that is that after 3 months I see very minor changes, if any, but I'm also struggling with understanding exactly what area we're talking about here.
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I've heard complaints from people using that device & so I was just trying to help. If you feel like you are doing wonderful following your current regime, then I'll just leave it at that, perfectly fine with me. ;)
I will say this though...
1) According to Tyler's profile he is 23, not 18. <=== Very important.
2) Palatal expansion barely had any "supporting evidence" either just a couple years back.... There is enough anecdotal evidence on the web about FacePulling (from very reputable people by the way) to just call it a "theory", but this is simply just my opinion. IMO there MUST be SOMETHING "appealing" about this FacePulling stuff if you've got 10 positive results being replicated in nearly every person that undergoes this "face pulling treatment" after a couple months- 1 year+, 2) if you've got doctors wondering it/creating their "own" FacePulling device, patenting it and adding it to their practice (Dr.Dean Howell, & if you've got NCR doctors themselves obtaining great results from it.
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I just read that Dr. Howell suggests that you only wear dental appliances such as the Homeoblock for 5-7 minutes a day.
http://www.cheeseslave.com/q-a-october-28-2012/ (http://www.cheeseslave.com/q-a-october-28-2012/)
Scroll down to question #4.
He says, for most people, the maximum amount of time to wear any dental appliance is somewhere around 5-7 minutes per day. He says that that most dentai/orthopedic appliances such as braces, head gear and palate expanders don’t work because people wear them for too long. If you put your body under stress, your body kicks into the sympathetic mode and builds scar tissue instead of bone. It can only build bone in the parasympathetic mode.
That just sounds crazy to me, but hey, who knows...
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My idea is to use the ncr helmet for 30 min a day at a moderate pulling force then using something like the crane at a lower pulling force while I sleep. I have a schwartz palate expander and would use that through the night with the head gear. In the day I am focusing on placing pressure on the roof of my mouth with my tongue ALL THE TIME. It's a habit that has to be developed.
My reasoning is that the space created with the ncr mask must be maintained in order for maximum new bone growth to be created rather than just shifting the position of the different bones in the skull, but pulling forces that are too high for too long may cause scar tissue and activate the sympathetic nervous system.
What do you think about this Dr. Mew?
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Thank you all for your comments and opinions this is what I was wanting to hear. I did try the old crane which was anchored to the chest and was too mobile compared to the head, but have a hunch that I could make a better design based on the RAMPA japan- not much written in English on it- but I've personally seen the best facial results in adults from it.
It does seem strange that you can get much from even 30min a day, if so would a heavy and long meal not affect the cranial structure and teeth. From Ilizarov and the old orthopeadic surgeons I would expect a much longer wear to get the effect.
I agree what things in the mouth are going to be limited which is why I want to look at paranasal inflation and cranial osteopathy and anything else that might work.
The premaxilla is an interesting question, we could discuss it for days but in all the adult skulls that I've seen it is fused as it says in the text books. Also I don't like swartz or DNA or homeoblocks because they are taking up too much of the tongue space and at the end of the day the tongue is one of the major factors that hold the maxilla up and forward. So this is worsening the cause while treating the symptoms- which needs to be minimised.
The research on maxillary expansion really boils down to 4 rather poor papers, I read one in detail only to discover that the patients did not actually expand at the rate that he was talking about, he could have noticed this from his own results. In general the younger you are the more skeletal effect you have and the faster you expand the same- although I thing that rapid expansion is too damaging. It seems that above 25 and 45 make a difference- only anecdotal although if you have a stroke at any age the face melts down fast enough.
Has anyone been using harder levels of inflation or wearing their headgear for several hours a day?
Also I've contacted Plato and would be interested if anyone could recomend anywhere else to goto to ask such questions. Sorry for not being able to respond fast I am up to my eyeballs most of the time. Best wishes, Mike
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Dr. Mike, here is Plato's Facebook profile, if you would like to friend him on Facebook.
And he's also a very handsome guy and newly certified NCR practitioner in the NYC area.
https://www.facebook.com/plato.powers
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Dr.Mew, thank you for replying and for perticipating in the discussion. It's of much help for people like me who live abroad and have very limited possibilities to find a pro to work with.
About the treatment time for face pulling. Would you say that the effect your talking about is bone growth or maxillary movemet? I'm thinking that bone growth for sure would resuire more time but that some peoples results, including the NCR results could be from moving bones (instead of growing bones)? I'm thinking adjustment like chiropractic/osteopathic ones.
Thank you all for your comments and opinions this is what I was wanting to hear. I did try the old crane which was anchored to the chest and was too mobile compared to the head, but have a hunch that I could make a better design based on the RAMPA japan- not much written in English on it- but I've personally seen the best facial results in adults from it.
It does seem strange that you can get much from even 30min a day, if so would a heavy and long meal not affect the cranial structure and teeth. From Ilizarov and the old orthopeadic surgeons I would expect a much longer wear to get the effect.
I agree what things in the mouth are going to be limited which is why I want to look at paranasal inflation and cranial osteopathy and anything else that might work.
The premaxilla is an interesting question, we could discuss it for days but in all the adult skulls that I've seen it is fused as it says in the text books. Also I don't like swartz or DNA or homeoblocks because they are taking up too much of the tongue space and at the end of the day the tongue is one of the major factors that hold the maxilla up and forward. So this is worsening the cause while treating the symptoms- which needs to be minimised.
The research on maxillary expansion really boils down to 4 rather poor papers, I read one in detail only to discover that the patients did not actually expand at the rate that he was talking about, he could have noticed this from his own results. In general the younger you are the more skeletal effect you have and the faster you expand the same- although I thing that rapid expansion is too damaging. It seems that above 25 and 45 make a difference- only anecdotal although if you have a stroke at any age the face melts down fast enough.
Has anyone been using harder levels of inflation or wearing their headgear for several hours a day?
Also I've contacted Plato and would be interested if anyone could recomend anywhere else to goto to ask such questions. Sorry for not being able to respond fast I am up to my eyeballs most of the time. Best wishes, Mike
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Dr.Mew, with all due respect, you sound too "traditional orthodontics" based. It's almost as if you have a "protective shield" up to protect you from this new up and coming approach that completely disagrees with traditional orthodontics. If you (or any other Dr. for that matter) is still going by the traditional orthodontics guidebooks then you are just going to go around in circles FOREVER! I'm not accusing you of being stuck on the "old way of thinking", I'm just saying that it kind of sounds like you have a certain "guard" up & that you also have many doubts about this type of stuff.
By the way, you said most skulls you have seen were fused? Have you ever had some of your direct patients undergo palate expansion the "new age" way?
In my opinion, traditional orthodontics and all that it stands for is flawed, period. There are some great case studies & papers out there on adult palate expansion (even blog posters that provide pictures) and some anecdotal evidence of adults claiming they've expanded more than 5-10mm/changed their face shape for the better ie:higher/wider cheekbones, stronger chin/jaw, broader smile, better lip support etc. You can even see thatwe have people reporting positive results in the "skeptical inquiry blog" from the DNA appliance. There are positive results EVERYWHERE.
Also, everytime somebody posts a positive review on a site endorsed by traditional orthodontists they get shut down by the moderators... Ironic huh? Lol. It's an honor to have you hear though Dr.Mew.... Hope you don't take this the wrong way.
Complexx
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Complex,
I really don't give a monkies about what you think of me, this is the internet, you have to have a thick skin, not offence taken. I am here to find the truth and I don't care where I get this from. If you are interested in who I am and my beliefs doing then please do search, I gave enough at the beginning of this post. Try searching me and "black swan" and see if you can follow the letters after it.
Many of you are literally performing experiments on your selves, which are valuable case studies that needs to be recorded and understood completely.
If we are going to find the whole truth and we are certainly not there yet, then we can start with case studies and opinons but we must also use the scienfitic process. Just because one part of the establishment of science is lost it does not mean the whole things is, look at the great advances in some areas of medicine or technology, eveyone acecssing this site has a computer and uses the internet. Quality research and good logic works. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Published evidence, even by the old gaurd is still evidence, it is an observation and there is truth in it. WHen you have the full truth then it fits all the facts, of all the papers and give a good explanation for the observations. We need this explanation, the answer or the phylosophy that explains eveything, and few are as focused as me in getting that. I've been through several ideas and philosophies and now I am focused on NCR. I'm talking to Dean and Plato and have take an osteopath on and we are going to see what we can do. What I get from this discussion will guide us in what we are doing.
Also only refer to the premaillay suture, I rely on the other sutures for my treatments, they very active in healthy individuals.
Has anyone here used longer pulling times and who can send me photos of what they have achived?
Finaly, please please please, could I ask people to talk some god quality images of them selves before they start treatment as good comparisons. The standard views are frontal, lateral and 45 degree. It is best to take them from a distance by zooming in, and having excellent light, may be not flash (depending on the situation) with a white background, without make up, hair pulled back (try a shower cap), standing upright looking forward ideally into a reflection of your selves (this is best practice), or pretend that you are gazing at the horizon over the sea in the distance. It is important to do this away from natural light that varies at times. Use the same equipment and the same differences, (if you are a real fanatic fix your aperture and magnification).
You never know what is going to happen. I would love to see some good results, but what ever happens you will have a good record even just for your self. You will need someone to give you a hand. Also try a variety of head inclinations, this is from expereince to trying to match before and afters, you can retake one today but not one in the past- unfortunately.
All the best,
Mike
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The premaxilla is an interesting question, we could discuss it for days but in all the adult skulls that I've seen it is fused as it says in the text books.
You might want to talk to Dr. Brendan Stack in DC about the premaxilla. He uses the ALF appliance and talks a lot about developing the premaxilla (I heard this from a 45 year old patient).
My cheekbones (the part just below the outer corners of the eyes) have widened quite a bit after I started using the transverse Schwarz appliance. Would this be a sign that the actual palatal suture has widened or could it be something else? (This was before any facepulling or balloon therapy.)
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Gaia,
Seeing some movement in the malar region (which is what I think that you are describing) is not uncommon with expansion, it does depend on the rate, amount and your age. I think that talking about the premaxillary suture is a bit of a red herring, I would love it to be open to help me with my treatments, but it does not stop the teeth anterior (the premaxillary region) from being moved in any direction. I could ask Brendan, he is a good friend of my father but I do think it is of much relevance in the larger picture.
Anyone able to give me more concrete feedback? It would be really usfull.
Mike
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Seeing some movement in the malar region (which is what I think that you are describing) is not uncommon with expansion, it does depend on the rate, amount and your age.
Is that because the actual mid-suture of the palate expanded though? (As opposed to alveolar bone, teeth tipping, something else.)
I ask this because in Sweden, where I'm from, this debate hasn't even started yet. Doctors here still claim that any expansion in adults is simply teeth tipping. I'm thinking cheek bones coming out might work as some kind of proof that it is in fact the suture. I'm 36 btw and have expanded 1 mm per month, 4.5 mm total.
I intend to post a before and after picture of my cheek in the canine area that came out because of face pulling (separate from the above). Maybe in a couple of days though since I'm currently on a trip.
Again, thanks for checking back here every now and then!
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Gaia. It's good to hear that you're making progress and that you're seeing results. We've talked before, I'm also a swedish resident who dabbled in self-treatment before getting external help.
Sweden is no doubt one of the worst countries when it comes to health care. We pat ourselves on the back for having "free" healthcare but as soon as it's dental, the cost shoots through the roof. Change is needed. Progress pictures is the first step to help people seek help outside of Sweden so that the orthodontic community is forced to consider other ways of treatment. Starve their business and make them change their ways. It's a free market and I'll be damned if i allow some punk surgeon or dentist to have their way with my body without giving me any options.
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Dr. Mike Mew --
I commend you for having the balls, curiosity, and integrity to be associated with the Orthodontic Island of Misfit Toys we have going on here.
"The premaxilla is an interesting question, we could discuss it for days but in all the adult skulls that I've seen it is fused as it says in the text books. Also I don't like swartz or DNA or homeoblocks because they are taking up too much of the tongue space and at the end of the day the tongue is one of the major factors that hold the maxilla up and forward. So this is worsening the cause while treating the symptoms- which needs to be minimised."
My tongue is massive and my palate is small and NCR has not fixed any of this.
As noted in a previous post I had an NCR session done after a 6 month break from NCR and I am having very very noticable sensitivity on my infraorbital nerve. This region was noted as being swollen and protruding by my rolfing practitioner after a year of NCR (the only time he was startled and noted something surprising vs. something out of place).
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I would like to add my 2 cents here.
I have tried face pulling as outlined in Plato's site and I've tried the crane headgear.
Also I have been expanding my palate using biobloc (Dr. Gibbs patient from Grand Rapids, MI).
Also the whole time I have been performing self-NCR on myself as taught by Ben of this site.
What I now realize was that as a kid I had blocked nose a lot so I was probably mouth breathing often, especially while I slept.
This was the root cause of crooked teeth, and my maxilla falling downwards and not growing horizontal. This is evident when I view my side profile.
I stopped using the crane because I was only wearing while I slept, and I felt it was too unstable to use while I slept, was worried that it was pulling on the maxilla with uneven forces.
Also Plato's facepulling technique gave me some noticeable results at first, like my cheekbones becoming more pronounced. however I stopped seeing changes after a while. this technique seem to slightly bring the whole face forward, not just the maxilla.
With face pulling technique I felt most pressure on the cheekbones during treatment, so it wasn't necessarily bringing the maxilla up and forward in the face, it was pulling on the whole face more.
I was doing all of these technique before I learned about the importance of correct tongue posture...
My current understanding is this, what I need is for my maxilla to come up and forward in the face, because it had dropped back and down as a kid since I resorted to mouth breathing often, this is evident by the fact that I had clogged nostrils a lot.
2 months ago I finally go the biobloc out and I went into light wire braces to align the teeth. I had expanded the palate considerably (for 1.5 years), and reopened the extraction spaces that had been closed by previous orthodontics.
What I am learning now, is that since I expanded the palate, I now have larger nasal passage way, so my nose is way less clogged, this allows me to train to make nose breathing the habit and always keep my mouth closed. Also because of the expansion, I now have the room to rest my tongue on the roof of the mouth.
Gram for gram I read the tongue is the strongest muscle in the body, so I am now using the tongue to push the maxilla up and forward in the face. I am beginning to see subtle results already with this. My guess is that If I continue to habitualize proper tongue posture and become a nose breather, and also as an daily exercise push the maxilla up and forward with the tongue, over time this is how I will get proper maxillary protraction. Also my new tongue posture will stabilize the expansion of the dental arch I gained.
As a kid I never learned to rest my tongue like this, so it will be interesting to see how adopting new posture of the tongue will affect my face at a later age. (I'm 24), As an experiment, through out the day I use my tongue to push on the alveolar ridge to encourage/drive the maxilla up and forward.
Also I am still continuing self-NCR on myself, this treatment may be helping this process a long as well.
Although even with self NCR I feel that I am seeing better results after I became conscious of the importance of keeping mouth closed and tongue on the roof of the mouth. It could be possible that when I first began self NCR 2 years ago,, I was still leaving my mouth open often and it was hindering my progress greatly.
This article below was a big eye opener for me:
http://www.jfdental.com/pdf/article-horizontal-growth.pdf
Dr. Mike Mew in your Craniofacial Dystrophy: Modern Melting Faces presentation you mentioned that your face has become better looking over the past 7 years as a result of adopting proper oral posture which is mouth closed with tongue on the roof of mouth.
and your assistants as well have been seeing positive facial changes as a result of adopting these new postures.
Are you saying that before, you and your assistants used to leave your mouth open as well?
Did you just adopt mouth closed, and tongue on roof of mouth as practice just to see positive facial changes? or were you doing other things? like chewing exercises? since you mention one of the issue is we eat foods that are too soft.
if angle of mandible is slanting down, could an adult reshape the mandible at late age to more horizontal mandible, by adopting proper posture?
for example, did you see changes to your mandible as an adult ? since I see that your mandible is pretty horizontal...
Like you said, if so much can go wrong at late age due to conditions like muscle dystrophy, then by using the muscles of jaw and tongue, we should be able to re-shape the bones to the more ideal design. since I believe bone is more like clay that is moldable.
So if our ancestors had well developed mandibles because they chewed a lot more, then if I was to begin doing a lot more chewing, will I be able to change the bone of lower jaw itself towards more developed jaw? for example, chewing more could cause more bone deposition in the lower jaw and actually make the bone bigger over time? Do you have any experience or insight in this, I'd very much like to see your viewpoint on this.
thanks.
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I've had braces for 5 years and got them age 16. I have a pushed back mandible, narrow top and bottom dental arches, and I have proper tounge posture (I've had proper tounge posture since God knows when)
I seriously think that it works both ways... If you undergo FP, NCR, Palate Exoansion without proper tounge posture, you will not receive optimal results. Now, in my case, I feel like since my tounge posture is good everything should go great and I shall receive the best results possible since tounge posture seems to be extremely important. I don't really think that you can get around your entire problem if you're not addressing EVERYTHING. Practicing proper tounge posture without fixing a narrow top or bottom arch will just leave you disappointed & vice versa.
CP: Did you expand your bottom arch considerably width wise?
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Hi all,
Thanks Mike for starting this discussion group, wanted to share my story and throw my hat into the debating ring.
So here goes......
At 14 years old, I was a happy, energetic, intelligent, athletic teenager growing up in the north west of England with a great family and no health probelms whatsoever. I have included a photo as an attachment (431.jpg). Notice the colour in my cheeks, support for my eyes from my cheekbones, facial symmetry, happy smile, broad nose and general healthy appearance. I know my cranio facial structure wasn't perfect but I was by no means an ugly teenager with a severe dental malocclusion or severely crowded teeth.
I was refered to my local orthodontist because I had very minor overcrowding, an almost ubiquitous problem in modern humans due to soft foods that require little or no mastication, over processed diets devoid of vital nutrition and poor oral posture, particuarly of the tongue and mouth breathing. My upper lateral incisors slightly overlapped my centrals and my lower lateral incisors slightly overlapped my lower cannines. Not a terrible mess. I wasn't particuarly bothered by it and didn't really want the treatment my ortho prescibed. He however was very insistant and persuasive with my mother and convinced her and me that the best thing to do would be to extract 4 bicuspids, 2 upper and 2 lower, close the space with brackets and archwires, straigtening my anterior teeth and ensuring that I would have adequate space for my wisdoms. I fell for his bullshit conventional orthodontic treatment model and I can say with certainty that it was the single biggest mistake I have ever made! It pretty much ruined my health and made my life a living nightmare.
I completed his "treatment", I am reluctant to call it a treatment because by definition something that causes more problems than in solves is not a treatment, including retention in 18 months. I was a model patient, I kept all my appliances clean and functional, I attended every appointment and did everything I was asked to do, I made his life really easily, he made mine very hard.
I was left at 16 years old with 6 straight upper and lower anterior teeth and room for my wisdoms like he promised but also an orthodontically rotated maxilla to the right of the midline, an anterior open bite of 3 mm which wasn't present before, a jammed, twisted cranium, inadequate support for my eyes, a flat dished in appearance, a retruded chin and weak profile, head pressure, neck pain at C3 because the twist in my skull torqued my dural membrane which passes out of the foramen magnum in the occipital bone and attcahes at C3, spinal scoliosis, pain in my right sacro illiac joint because my sacrum was torqued, low back pain as my lumbar vertebrae became jammed, chronic fatigue, chronic brain imflammation and brain fog and all included in the costs of my ortho work!!!!!
To cut a long story short, life became incredible difficult as I was plunged into poor health by incredible bad extraction retraction orthodontics which was merely treating the symptoms and not the cause of my problems and is the completely wrong approach. I struggled through my remaining school years, dropped of of law school due to health problems, had to quit jobs, give up sports and move back home with parents. Not fun at all.
At this point I began my own research, started joining the dots and came to the conclusion that poor ortho and subsequent poor structure was behind my issues and set about correcteing them. This became my full time job and my lifes purpose.
My first point of call was Dr Amir in London. He agreed my problem was dental and through removeable appliances, mandibular repositioning devices and teaching me how to breath correctly and swallow properly without thrusting my tongue opened up about half a tooth space where mine were extracted, brought my chin forward about 3/4" and widened my arches. My health improved over the course of 3 years but I was still fatigued, in pain and fogged in.
At this point I discovered Dr Dean Howell and NCR and flew to NYC for treatment. He agreed with me and Amir and set about releasing my jammed skull and optimising my structure using NCR endonasal balloons. I have had over 50 series (200 inflations) with Dean. I was also the first patient in the world, "patient zero" as Plato likes to refer to me as to use the FaceMAX face pulling device to augment NCR and bring my maxilla and mid face forward. I know there is a lot of debate about this issue but in my experience the combination of NCR to release cranial sutures and free up the skull combined with pulling gently in an upward direction on the maxilla without anchoring the device against the face or head for less than 30 mins per day will bring the cheekbones out, the mid face forward, the maxilla up and forward allowing the mandible to swing forward as the temporal bones rotate posteriorly and inferiorly. If you pull too hard, for too long and at the wrong angle the body resists the change, tightens up and goes into a "sympathetic" or stressed state, not conducive to making structural change and healing.
Now, I am absolutely not an expert in this, I am still learning but I would wager that I have more experience than anybody else out there at doing this. I don't know all the answers, I may be wrong in my assumptions but I want to share with you all the results I have managed to achieve. Please look at my before and after photos I have attached.
In the picture on the left was I chronically fatigued, in severe pain, had brain fog, a dished in profile, weak chin, jammed skull, facial pallor and a general stressed look on my face. In the photo on the right I was in way less pain, had more energy, was happier, felt better, had more support for my eyes, better facial symmetry, more attractive eye orbits, a wider face, stronger profile and generally look healthier. I have by no means finished my odyssey, I am continuing with NCR once a month, face pulling and expansion ortho with Gerry Smith @ ICNR.com to achieve the round, symmetrical skull, wide arches, all 32 teeth and perfect facial symmetry and great health I have always wanted.
These results are possible, I am living testament to that but it takes time and perseverance with NCR, face pulling, a Weston Price style high nutrient diet with little or no refined foods, correct oral posture, expansion orthodontics with ALF's or similar devices such as Biobloc orthotropics or homeoblocks, a whole body detox of heavy metals and environmental toxins using chelating agents and saunas and positive intention setting. Anything is possible, don't be limited by faulty beliefs and a corrupt system, set the intention and live your reality, break the matrix!
Just as a side note, I am now the only fully qualified NCR therapist in the UK, having been personally trained by Dr Howell at the NCR research institute in San Diego. I am available anytime for treatments in the UK and abroad if needed. I can provide NCR at a much more affordable cost than Dr Howell due to lower overheads. I will also be working in conjunction with Dr Mike Mew in his Purley, London clinic to further develop face pulling with NCR and Biobloc orthotropics and I start dental school in London at King's college all being well in September.
Please feel free to contact me through this forum or at ianhedley1@hotmail.co.uk
Yours in health,
Ian Hedley
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Here are my before photos.
Before extraction retraction ortho at 14, after and again after extensive NCR and face pulling with the FaceMAX
regards,
Ian Hedley
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Dear All,
Please excuse my absence. Problems logging on. Now sorted. Thank you all for you advice and comments. In the mean time I've met up with Ian Hedley, whom I found very informative and easy to work with, so we are sure to build a relationship and see how NCR and Orthotropics can be combined. We are both still wondering about the effect of wear times but since some people are struggling to wear the head gear that I've designed for much time we are naturally selecting people into groups. I'm a little amazed that people come all this way with such problems and then don't commit them selves, almost as if they want us to do the work for them. It makes me understand why every one want the magic pill that cures things.
There have been some excellent comments in this discussion.
CP you were privileged to be treated by Dr Gibbs, he is one of the best that I know. Sometimes the best people do not come with a neon sign above them showing you how good they are. You description is excellent, as is your grasp of what is going on (in my opinion). Complex you are spot on with tongue posture. This is the natural face puller. I often say to people that if I could plug into their cerebellum in the same way that people plug expensive cars into computer systems and override the factory settings to make the more efficient or less so and faster, then I would not need nothing else. It's like in the Matrix (very appropriate for this site). The problem is that if your palate is small and set down it is uncomfortable to do this and we are creatures of comfort, so just don't do it. We need help and most of us cannot be bothered we really just want that magic pill.
There is an old saying in orthodontics that function follows form (and the reverse). Actually posture is more important, since pushing your tongue for 5 min will do nothing, pushing for 4-8hrs will change your life. Posture is function over time. If we can change the form and make it easier to change function then we can change the posture. There is certainly more to it that changing tongue position but this seems to be the most important, possibly followed by head posture.
I will keep you posted on developments here, and we are now recruiting subject to try what we are learning together. Our clinic will be Monday or Tuesday am in Purley Surrey. Only the very motivate need apply.
For those of you that are to far away please find out more information for me. I've started a discussion with Sally Fallon from the Weston A Price Foundation to see what she has to say. If your've seen the ancestral health lecture you will be aware that I'm not convinced with WAPFs conclusion but we all need to remain open minded. I still have to talk to Karl Nishimura and I am happy to talk suggestions from anyone here.
Best wishes,
Mike
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This is excellent! I would expect these news to be recieved with a bit more excitement!
If I hadn't all ready started treatment I would've loved to participate. I hope it works out well. This is exactly what the world needs. I'll spread the word!
/Andreas
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Thank you Ian for sharing that wonderful story. May I ask how your scoliosis and brain fog are doing now? Have you had any x-rays post treatment?
Richard
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Dear all,
Following my meetings with Dr Mike Mew I would like to let everyone know that there will be a 4 day NCR series available with me at Dr Mew's clinic in Purley, London once a month. The first one will be April 11-14.
We are both very excited about the potential of patients having NCR, orthotropics and using some form of reverse pull headgear simultaneously all with the aim of improving facial aesthetics, orthodontic health and general health and well being. This truly is an exciting time for all involved.
Please email me for appointment times or with any queries.
ianhedley1@hotmail.co.uk
Regards,
Ian Hedley
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FebruaryRichard,
Thanks, I am only too happy to share.
My brain fog is much improved, I can drive without difficulty now and I found studying in preparation for dental school much easier. It hasn't gone completely but it is vastly improved.
Before NCR and facepulling I was 6'2.5", now I am 6'3.5"! A full inch taller as my spine has straightened and my scoliosis has improved.
Ian
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Does anyone here use Dr. Belfor's Orthoblock and Nu Smile Facelift? I think they have the same results with the homeoblock since they have the same inventor. I was searching for NCR and biobloc but there is none is my area. However, i knew a dentist who sells orthoblock and wanted to try it. Anyone with reviews about it?
Also, i read about a blog that about a guy named David who was very successful in improving facial aesthetics using braces and elastics. Elastics are attached to lower braces and upper braces to pull the maxilla forward. Sounds interesting.
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Also I knew Amir, nice guy visited my surgery to see what we were doing but played his cards very close to his chest and I was never very sure of his actual beliefs, which is always a shame. Does anyone know where he has gone to?
M
I've had several patients come to me saying that he is no longer practicing, he would certainly owe them a call if he still is, but he's not responded to anything.
I feel this needs to be clarified, as it could stop people who need help from getting in touch with Dr Amir, based on false premises. I know it delayed my contacting him, to the detriment of my health.
You are confusing the Dr Amir in Putney London, who is in practice and getting terrific results, with somebody else.
I asked Dr Amir about the posts on this forum - he is aware of them, and says he has asked you to take them down, or to clarify them, as they are misleading, but you haven't done so.
He also confirms that he has never met you before in his life, so you are certainly mistaking him for someone else.
I hope this clears things up.